Login or create an account
Want to make an edit to this page? Log in or register, and you can contribute right away!
Status:
Stub
This page describes the mechanical benefits to Prestige Awards that apply to all factions. Your total prestige award (TPA) is how many prestige award points you have ever accumulated for a given faction. As your TPA goes up, you can buy any magic items that are at the appropriate level for your TPA. You can either spend the gold value for items, or you can spend prestige award points effectively lowering your current prestige award (CPA). Think of prestige awards like hit points - you have your total that you've accumulated and you also have your current unused amount. In addition to these tables, factions of their own unique TPA and CPA awards. Typically, those faction-specific awards are listed as minimum TPA to purchase, cost in CPA.
Total Prestige Award and Item Purchases
| TPA | Maximum Item Cost |
|---|---|
| 4 | 500gp |
| 9 | 1500gp |
| 13 | 3,000gp |
| 18 | 5,250gp |
| 22 | 8,000gp |
| 27 | 11,750gp |
| 31 | 16,500gp |
| 36 | 23,000gp |
| 40 | 31,000gp |
| 45 | 41,000gp |
| 49 | 54,000gp |
| 54 | 70,000gp |
| 58 | 92,500gp |
| 63 | 120,000gp |
| 67 | 157,500gp |
Spellcasting
You can use CPA to purchase the following spellcasting services. This list is not complete above 2.
| CPA | Benefit |
|---|---|
| 1 | Dispel magic |
| 1 | Gentle repose |
| 1 | Lesser restoration |
| 1 | Make whole |
| 1 | Remote blindnes/deafness |
| 1 | Remove curse |
| 1 | Remove disease |
| 1 | Remove paralysis |
| 1 | Sending |
| 2 | Atonement (8 CPA to restore druid/cleric powers) |
| 2 | Break enchantment |
| 2 | Cure Critical Wounds |
| 2 | Divination |
| 2 | Greater dispel magic |
| 2 | Neutralize poison |
| 2 | Overland flight |
| 2 | Restoration (4 CPA to restore a permanent negative level) |
| 2 | Scrying |
Weekly Services
| CPA | Benefit |
|---|---|
| 1 | Mounts for PC plus up to one mount for one companion per level |
| 1 | Boat travel for the PC and up to 10 others |
| 1 | Work detail of 50 1st-level commoners |
| 1 | Skilled craftsman (expert of 1/2 PC's level) |
| 2 | Bodyguard (warrior of 1/2 PC's level) |
| 2 | Ship travel (deep water) for the PC and up to 20 others |
| 2 | Squad of 10 1st-level warriors |
| 2 | Combat trained mount plus up to one mount for one companion per level |
Relationships:
Comments
Mandatory or Optional
So, here's the real rub about the faction system from pathfinder. Since it allows access to magical gear based on reputation, it almost becomes a mandatory thing to join a faction. Anyone who doesn't will have a power differential that will only increase as the characters gain levels and wealth. While not everyone will join a faction, most people will feel like they have to just to contribute effectively to the party.
This is basically why PFS made the faction system mandatory for their society play. Whether that's what we want to do here or not... I'm leaning towards not because it dulls the inter-faction play down quite a bit. It's nice to be able to turn a faction mission down because you don't agree with the methods or purpose and not worry that you'll fall behind the power curve. I do have some thoughts about where we could go with this though.
I like the prestige system for awarding points. I do like the concept of a faction-specific bonus above and beyond PA though. Originally, I was thinking feat, but now I'm leaning towards a faction trait that all faction members receive in addition to their normal traits. A trait shouldn't be so much of a bonus that joining a faction becomes mandatory.
Basically, I think instead of unlocking all magical items at certain values, each faction should unlock only a handful of items for purchase. Maybe 5-10 each, scaling in value, and themed with the faction. Say... one item every two character levels worth of faction missions. The TPA chart can still be used. Just blank out every third line and you've got ten entries. i'm thinking that the PA costs for spellcasting and weekly services might want to be bumped up a bit.
For an example, the PFS expects characters to earn an average of 2.5 cpa per module. There are three modules to a level. By second level, the character has 7.5 CPA saved up. With the pricing above, the character could hire thirty first level warriors and use them to railroad his next level, which gives him more pa and allows him to repeat for the next few levels.
In the tables below, I removed the pa options that could be abused. I.E. getting horses with pa and selling them for gold.
The tables would look something like this:
TPA Maximum Item Cost*
4 500gp
9 1500gp
18 5,250gp
22 8,000gp
31 16,500gp
36 23,000gp
45 41,000gp
49 54,000gp
58 92,500gp
63 120,000gp
* in this table, the maximum item cost entries would be replaced with the item list for a given faction, but the PA cost would remain as listed.
CPA Benefit
1 Dispel magic
1 Gentle repose
1 Lesser restoration
1 Make whole
1 Remove blindness/deafness
1 Remove curse
1 Remove disease
1 Remove paralysis
1 Sending
2 Atonement (8 CPA to restore druid/cleric powers)
3 Break enchantment
3 Cure Critical Wounds
3 Divination
4 Greater dispel magic
4 Neutralize poison
5 Overland flight
5 Restoration (7 CPA to restore a permanent negative level)
6 Scrying
Weekly Services
CPA Benefit
1 Boat travel for the PC
2 Work detail of 10 1st-level commoners
2 Skilled craftsman (expert of 1/2 PC's level)
3 Bodyguard (warrior of 1/2 PC's level)
3 Ship travel (deep water) for the PC and up to 10 others
4 Squad of 5 1st-level warriors
Optional and Varied for each Faction
Part of why I prefer traits to currencies is that I would like a given character to have potential relationships with multiple factions - support as well as enmity. This is a lot easier to track with traits rather than multiple currencies, and with traits we can just set a DC for each service, or even reduction in magic item price, and then you test your faction trait against that DC. I think the suggestion that whether you succeed or fail, your trait is reduced by 1 for each such test, and maybe you can only make one per week? Another reason I like traits is that the PF society already has the currency system - I'd like for DGA to stand out as something different and at least somewhat unique.
Here's a mock-up of the list above with DCs instead of prices - these are just off the top of my head:
Discounted Item Cost
Each faction will have it's own item list of course
I'd make this a simple test against a DC of 10. If you fail, you get no discount, but still have access to special item lists for the faction as long as you have some standing with them (at least a +1)
Roll Result Discount
10+ 5%
15+ 10%
20+ 15%
25+ 20%
30+ 25%
Of course this discount is in addition to the benefit of having access to items that those outside the faction do not. Maybe you can visit a faction quartermaster to get general equipment from them as well and not just faction-specific stuff. It makes sense that a member of the Red Currant Society, who has a good reputation with them and lots of quests under his belt, would be able to buy everything cheaper if it came from them.
DC Benefit**
15 Dispel magic
20 Gentle repose
20 Lesser restoration
15 Make whole
20 Remove blindness/deafness
20 Remove curse
20 Remove disease
20 Remove paralysis
15 Sending
25 Atonement
20 Break enchantment
30 Cure Critical Wounds
25 Divination
20 Greater dispel magic
25 Neutralize poison (in the DGA, only powerful Bards are likely to have this spell, or possibly founders of religions)
25 Overland flight
35 Restoration (in the DGA, only an Alchemist is likely able to provide this)
20 Scrying
*These might vary widely based on the faction in question, and each faction should probably have a list. For example, in the DGA, divine healing spells are very difficult to find, so they would be much more expensive than in Golarion. Similarly, arcane spells would still be very common, especially for factions like the Sascrian Schools, and would be relatively easy to find and acquire. Far more people in Gondal are able to cast Sending than are able to Cure Light Wounds, for example, at least as we have things written up now. In fact, a big benefit of being in a religious faction would be access to those divine kinds of spells.
General rule: DC 5 + 5 x spell level (lvl 1 DC 10, lvl 2 DC 15, etc.) +10 DC if it is a divine-only spell, +5 DC if it is only available to one arcane class (bard only, alchemist only)
Weekly Services
DC Benefit
15 Boat travel for the PC
15 Work detail of 10 1st-level commoners
15 Skilled craftsman (expert of 1/2 PC's level)
20 Bodyguard (warrior of 1/2 PC's level)
20 Ship travel (deep water) for the PC and up to 10 others
20 Squad of 5 1st-level warriors
Thoughts on the trait system:
* Should we allow Cha modifier to be added to rolls to acquire services? I kind of like the idea, since Cha is probably the most common dump stat, and the bonus makes sense, but this also might penalize non-Cha classes too much.
* Whatever we do, I think that divine spells and services should be a lot more expensive than they are in Golarion, and arcane services can be cheaper. I think that this fits with the DGA and sets it slightly apart
* Remember that if we have factions that are not exclusive (which I prefer), it would mean keeping track of multiple different currencies of CPA and TPA, once for each faction. It also doesn't give us a system for faction enmity. Using traits means we just list the benefits for each quest or adventure (+5 to one faction, -3 to another, or whatever), and list a few traits on the character sheet with a bonus or penalty after them.
* It makes sense to me that a character cannot even try for a faction benefit unless he has at least a +1 in a trait. The negative faction traits just mean that the faction in question doesn't like you - maybe a penalty to social skill rolls or something.
Eh, I'm not a fan of dc's and
Eh, I'm not a fan of dc's and rolling for faction benefits. It doesn't make sense to me that you walk into your faction house one day, roll a one, and pay normal price for everything, then walk in the next day, roll a 20, and get 20% off everything. And it adds a lot of variability to what your money is worth. I.E., you *might* be able to buy that item, but only if you roll high enough. So you go in, roll, and miss the % discount you needed. So you walk around for a bit, and then leave.
I think you mixed traits with PA in your post. Traits are half-feats, such as reactionary which provides +2 to your initiative. Prestige is the value that accumulates. and has current and total values.
I'm a fan of set values, since you don't have to do any extra work at that point to determine what you get. If you want to have adjusting values for each faction, then you'll have to track each faction independently. Which means you're looking at a PA current/total for each group. That becomes a lot of extra record keeping. I'm thinking about possibly cutting the tracking down to two factions. Your "favored" faction and your "unfavored" faction. I.E. the factions you support the most and oppose the most. I could see something like providing half your favored bonus to factions associated with your favored faction, and half your unfavored bonus to factions associated with your enemy.
I think that would simulate a wide range of associations with very little comparative record keeping.
I think that's easy to fix -
I think that's easy to fix - you can just have set discounts with your faction.
Trait Discount
+2 5%
+4 10%
+6 15%
+8 20%
+10 25%
For the services, it makes sense to me that, economically, prices change and availability isn't always there whenever you visit some kind of faction headquarters. I actually like the variability - it gives the illusion that the world is actually a world, with local variations, shortages and so on, without having to actually go through and modify prices on each item - but that's a personal preference.
What I'm trying to avoid is 1) the huge amount of bookkeeping involved with having multiple factions, each of which is optional, each with their own currency to keep track of, or 2) simplifying so much that the faction system isn't as interesting. I'd like a player to be able to ignore factions totally, never do faction quests, etc., and for another player to have relationships with eight different factions if they want, and get caught up in the politics and hard choices between them, but not have to track eight currencies. For me, traits are the easiest way to track this, since almost everything else in D20 systems is measured with +x.
(Here I'm just using the word 'trait', not to mean something like a racial trait, just as a general term. I could also use 'rating' or 'reputation' or whatever - it's the measurement of your relationship to a given faction)
It sounds like you're talking about a set bonus, which is very similar in my view to what I'm talking about. So instead of "Red Currant Society +4" you would have "Red Currant Society 4". Is that right?
Aye, I associate traits with
Aye, I associate traits with a specific set of abilities that function as half-feats. Paizo introduced them in adventure guides, and eventually in their advanced players guide. Having set discount levels is nice, but again we need to consider overall balance. a 20% discount is a nice discount. It means that a character gets about 20% more value out of their money. That's 20% more magical items. Depending on how easy or hard it is to get to the 20% mark will determine how important it is to be in a faction.
And if we run with one value as a prestige accumulation total, then there are a few things we need to consider there. *Yes, I am the devils advocate* The first being that if you are awarded prestige for completing faction-based missions regardless of the faction, then it behooves players to join as many factions as they can find to get to that 20% discount faster. Second, it becomes very difficult to remove prestige for pursuing goals in opposition to your faction. Or, in other words, there's no penalty to completing a faction mission, and then undoing it the next day for another faction.
In order to make factions something more than *accumulate points, buy more stuff* there has to be penalties to go along with the bonuses. There needs to be a drawback. If you accumulate ten points with the anti-slavers guild, then the slavers guild should have it out for you, or at least provide a sizable penalty to interactions with those who favor or don't want to displease that group.
By combining all factions into one score, we eliminate these drawbacks because we don't have any way to track where the points came from, who likes the character the best, and who dislikes them the best.
BTW, the discount is good, as long as we can set the values to be something difficult to reach.
If we set a cap for the number of points a character can have per level, we can set discount points at certain level breaks. This allows a character who finds a faction they like to have the opportunity to *catch up* to another character who joined a faction at level one.
The main point for me is
The main point for me is getting away from having ten different currencies if we have ten different factions. The rest of the things you mentioned are easily fixable, I think. For example, we can just build missions so that there is always a bonus to one faction and a penalty to another - the slaver/anti-slaver example is good. Slaver missions would be something like "When complete, you receive +2 with the Slavers and -3 with the Anti-Slavers" or whatever. We can just build missions that always have a drawback, making players make hard choices, which is what I want anyway.
Similarly, I don't actually feel strongly about whether there should even be a discount system. I'm fine with your faction...let's say "reputation", not trait to be clear...just enabling you to have any access to magic items and special equipment at all. Since the Collapse, magic is suddenly an incredibly scarce resource, and the world is full of adventurers here and there tracking down whatever working items and artifacts still exist for the various factions. The discount is just a common thing, but if we dropped it and just had access result, that's fine by me.
What's key to me is having a system you describe - where there can be both rewards and penalties - both alliance and enmity. In the TPA/CPA system, as I understand it, there is no negative TPA or CPA, and it is designed with the assumptions that 1. every character has a faction affiliation and 2. every character has *only one* faction affiliation. If we want a more complex situation (which I do), then we have to do something other than TPA and CPA. I'm just putting forth a reputation system as a replacement which allows positives, negatives, variation and hard choices.
If you want to be purely a member of one faction - awesome! If you are a mercenary who will work for anyone, and will have slight reps with each - awesome! If you want to support one faction and have another hate you - cool! If you want to ignore the faction system entirely in your game and just pay list prices in gold for everything - awesome! That's my take anyway.
The rest is just working out the details of the system, which is very doable.
So, just to be clear here,
So, just to be clear here, when you mean you don't want ten different currencies, are you talking about having to track each faction separately with an individual score? I can't really see how we can have different faction values without having to track them.
The PA chart gives us a good starting place to build off of. How about this: We keep the PA chart as we discussed prroviding faction specific magical items, 10 or 15 over the course of the chart. Those are our benefits, along with burning PA for the occasional team of workmen. For the penalty, we keep the discount system, but reverse it. Instead of getting 20% off, they have a 20% increase in cost when purchasing anything from that area. In addition, we can select a certain number of reputation points after which members of the opposing faction simply refuse them service, and another point after which the opposing faction will actively attempt to kill the character.
In other words, our benefits and penalties.
Benefits: A faction-specific list of magical items that become available as reputation increases.
Various items that Current reputation points can be spent on, such as a team of laborers.
Drawbacks: Increases in item costs, inability to purchase items, threat of death.
The other thing we need to do is determine roughly how many reputation points *should* be gained and lost per level, assuming a character is focusing on a specific reputation. If we make a basic statement like players will have the opportunity to gain or lose 4 reputation points per level, then our chart will go from -80 to 80, and we can start putting together item reward lists. My thought there is that each available magical item should be level capped, I.E. the second level item for any given faction should be capped at the character wealth-by-level chart for a 2nd level character.
The biggest drawback to me is
The biggest drawback to me is what you didn't mention - that there would be one pool of PA currency for multiple factions. So, for example, at some point a character might have this on their character sheet:
357gp, 23sp, 19cp or whatever, then
Bandit Kings of Halag TPA 7 CPA 3
Red Currant Society TPA 2 CPA 2
Arcane Schools of Sascria (penalized, enmity) TPA -3? Not sure how this would be represented...
Bifetra Corsairs TPA 1 CPA 0
Northern Pantheon (penalized, enmity) TPA however we represent the negative
Southern Pantheon TPA 2 CPA 0
etc.
This, for a player who wants to really dabble, and isn't focusing on just one faction/currency.
My proposal for the same character would be this:
Bandit Kings of Halag +3
Red Currant Society +2
Arcane Schools of Sascria -3
Bifetra Corsairs +0
Northern Pantheon -whatever
Southern Pantheon +0
With the above idea that your reputation degrades each time you use it, and listing the +0's just to note that you once had a reputation with those groups, but you've spent up all of your social capital, as it were.
I'm seeing how this may not be that big a difference - I just still prefer bonuses to currencies - in part because we can (for example) have the bonus apply to social interactions with other members of your faction, etc.
Like I said, this may not end up being a huge difference, I'm just preferring what seems simpler, especially if we are going to represent negative relationships (enmity) as well as social capital (which is what PA seems to represent)
troubling
i don't see much difference between:
Bandit Kings of Halag 3/7PA
Red Currant Society 2/2PA
Arcane Schools of Sascria -3PA
Bifetra Corsairs 0/1PA
Northern Pantheon -whateverPA
Southern Pantheon 0/2PA
and
Bandit Kings of Halag +3
Red Currant Society +2
Arcane Schools of Sascria -3
Bifetra Corsairs +0
Northern Pantheon -whatever
Southern Pantheon +0
Basically, your option is just tracking the CPA and not the TPA.
The difference I do see however, is that the second method either discourages players from spending reputation until they can get to whatever item, or removes the concept of allowing reputation to allow access to gear in order to promote rep spending. It's basically just the current PA from the current/total PA in the top chart. The more simplified the chart is, the less you can do with it.
The reason behind tracking reputation through two channels is so that a player can spend his reputation on things like workmen and not feel like he's preventing himself from being able to pick up those magic items offered by the faction.
If you remove one of those channels, the total channel, then you either have to base everything off the current channel *which will cause players to want to hoard their faction and not spend any of it on the small things so they can open up the big stuff sooner* or you have to remove a section of the faction content, specifically the magical item access.
I can't really think of a way to allow players to spend their reputation without penalizing their access to magical items with just one number. So, barring other options, it would seem like a tradeoff. If we take magical items out of the faction thing entirely, we can simplify the chart without issue. However, we're also reducing the value and complexity of factions at the same time. While I thought that blanket access to magical gear such as the pathfinder framework provides was too much faction power, I do think that factions should have *some* mechanical payoff. Originally, I envisioned this as being a subset of magical items that were themed to their respective factions, and only available after reaching a certain level of reputation.
I guess the question falls back out again. Is there a way we can use a single number per faction to represent both an absolute value and a relative value? Or is paring each faction entry down by one number worth dropping the more complex faction benefits?
Maybe it's me, but I keep thinking that you're seeing more into the PA framework than is there. It's just a representative numerical system. It can represent decreases just as easily as increases. As a framework, we can use it to represent reputation. Or we could just as easily use it as a reward/penalty system for retrieving escaped prisoners, or mining certain amounts of ore, or almost anything else. It seems like we keep getting stuck on the system fluff. PA stands for prestige award. We can rename it RV for reputation value and use it in the same way. It's only limited to increases in pathfinder society because reputation decreases were a specific element they did not want to include in society play. Not because the framework doesn't support it.
As you see from my example, the increase in complexity from your system to the PA or RV system is three digits or so per entry. I guess I just don't see a simpler way to get all the functionality out of the system that we want.
Last point, and then I'll
Last point, and then I'll turn to other stuff until others weigh in - having one number makes players choose between having a higher social modifier and having access to concrete benefits. I still lean toward a system that demands more choices, but as I said above, the differences aren't really tremendous, just preferential. (I also like the idea of DGA having it's own system). So far we have you and MikeB in favor of the currencies, so I'm already behind, and if that's how we go, then I'll write for that.
Thanks for the back and forth - it's the kind of thing I enjoy (hence having been on this project for a year and a half...)
Yeah, I spend most of my day
Yeah, I spend most of my day sitting at my computer and having these same kinds of discussions with folks. A lot of times it comes down to preferential biases. Hopefully, as I get more comfortable with the site and the content, I'll be able to contribute more effectively around the various pages. I know that discussions and problem-solving are my two favorite things to do.
Then welcome to the party!
Then welcome to the party! Feel free to contribute wherever you like - a place I'd start is where we're trying to work our way toward publishable adventures. MikeB has a few scenarios that he runs at conventions which he hasn't posted yet, but we have a free intro adventure:
http://byswarm.com/dark-golden-age/event/dga-free-intro-adventure
designed to move characters from level 1 to 2, to introduce the setting elements and themes, and to lead into the first full adventure module which we have outlined here:
http://byswarm.com/dark-golden-age/event/adventure-module-outline-bandit...
and a draft of which I started here:
http://byswarm.com/dark-golden-age/event/adventure-module-bandit-kings-h...
In looking through these, you will see how they connect backward to the work we've already done in the setting, and I think focusing on these might be a way to bring our efforts in line and avoid the problem of world-builder's disease :) (that is, continually world-building without getting down to writing publishable content)
Of course, you can work on whatever grabs your interest - those might just be a place to start.
Reward rooted in relationships
I like this stub and want to build upon it and possibly tweak it - I want to steer away from another thing to micro-manage in a system that is already full of micro-managing :)
I'm thinking that this fits well with one of the themes of the Dark Golden Age - that it is in some ways post-apocalyptic. Economies based on arcanotechnology and slave labor have collapsed, and not everything has full rebooted yet in society. This means that barter and trade will mean more than it used to - this could be a way to avoid the gold-as-reward cycle. Instead, you have something like social capital with a particular group, and in return they hook you up. This also avoid the "magic shop" issue that comes up with D&D, and roots rewards firmly in the character's relationships.
From currency to traits, says I
Responding myself? Ah well.
As I think about it, I think we might want to consider simplifying the faction reward system. I'm thinking of D20 Modern here, where wealth is a state like any others, and in order to find out if you can afford something, you make a test against that stat. So if you are wealthy, you might have a +20, and then thing you can buy have DCs associated with them, and you get to make a test every so often to see if you can scrape together the cash and the credit and so on.
This would simplify the system to be something like this:
The Wild Ones +4
Rokinu +12
Red Currant Society +2
This is someone who has done some work for the Wild Ones and maybe a quest or two for the Red Currants - they know who he is, but he's not in the know. For Rokinu's band, though, they are probably full members, 'made men' so to speak. Maybe they can substitute their reputation score for social skill rolls with other members of Rokinu's gang - it doesn't really matter if the boss is ugly and uninteresting to talk to, you're still going to respect what he says, etc.
I like this alternative due to it's simplicity. I think we could change the above tables to have DCs associated with each service, rather than a cost, and say you can make a roll every week of game time or something (before you wear out your welcome). Maybe if you fail the roll, you still get a discount on buying the item or service in question based on listed prices in the Core Rulebook or supplements.
I think this would be easier to keep track of, and is clear at a glance on the character sheet, rated the same way everything else is rated - with a bonus.
It also opens up the possibility of competing factions giving you a penalty. Say Rokinu sends you on a mission to kill a member of the Red Currants who crossed him. Now it looks like this:
Wild Ones +4
Rokinu +15
Red Currant -2
Faction-based adventures can just have numbers at the top telling you what will happen. In this example
Adventure: Assassination
The characters are hired by Rokinu to assassinate a member of the Red Currant Society
Rokinu +3; Red Currant Society -4
Thoughts?
I like it.
Every time you make a check, your current total should decrease - whether or not you succeed.
I like the simplicity of the approach, and it still allows for a lot of flexibility.