I've been continuing to think about magicmechanics, and I'm starting to think that unless we make it something that is easier or frequently doable, we will run into balance issues. The classes and CR system are written with a certain balance in mind. If we make being a caster harder without a benefit, we end up causing an imbalance. In general, gamers don't like imbalance which could lead to this being a strike against the setting. If we create a negative and a positive in order to create a neutral balance, it will be more complex for playtesting.
So while I haven't ruled negatives for doing magic out, I am also wondering about having a third option that aligns with robosnake's ideas on divine magic. That is that for every given time period (weeks or months), a caster has to do something in order to maintain their connection to magical ability. At that point, it becomes less of an issue of balance and instead becomes an adventure seed or downtime issue.
Based on how the games went at Gen Con and in the seminars, people REALLY like the beastfolk and the magical stuff seemed to be less interesting to them. That could be because I decided to have the magical issues off screen, but I can't be certain either way.
Keep it simple
For me, the focus should remain on simply applying a concrete cost to spellcasting - I think that all considerations of what constitutes a "good" or "evil" action should come out at the table, in play, and shouldn't be the purview of the DM having to decide what is good or evil.
Like anything else - when there is a price, how you pay that price determines how your action is judged. There is a price to arcane spellcasting, and the price can be paid either by the caster or through the caster taking from others - that's pretty self-explanatory.
There's a sacrifice in order to gain new divine spells ever second level (or so). Again, how you pay that price will speak for itself.
My design goal is almost always to achieve the intended effect with the least complication possible. I'm not in favor of making Pathfinder into a game about morality - which it is not suited to at all. What I do want is to add some interesting costs into the system in order to make the players make moral choices through the course of the game.
3.5 Private Sanctuary
The latest episode of 3.5 Private Sanctuary covered the low magic fantasy setting concept in their latest episode. It's a very good discussion and gave me some more ideas.
http://www.35privatesanctuary.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=arti...
For the gritty magic rules, I
For the gritty magic rules, I don't want to get hung up on categorizing good and evil. I think that if we give something an extra cost, and if that cost is actually costly, then players will decide how to pay the price, and what they decide will speak for itself.
That's why I like arcane magic requiring a sacrifice every time you cast. If you sacrifice yourself, most people would call that "good". If you steal energy from others and sacrifice that, many would call that "evil". But the only important thing is that magic has a cost, and that the cost can be paid in more than one way.
The same way with Clerics. I proposed the idea of a Cleric, or any divine caster, having to make a big sacrifice each time they receive a new level of spells to draw from. Depending on what kind of Cleric you're dealing with, though, that sacrifice could be very different things. I made some general suggestions for sacrifices that might be appropriate for the different alignment axes: Good, Evil, Chaos, Law.
What I'd like is for the system to be simple and unobtrusive. I'm not sure I like the DM defining actions as good or evil or distributing points and that kind of thing because at that point, we're creating a whole new game, rather than just modding Pathfinder for a new setting. We're creating a morality sub-game, in essence, or at least it seems so.
In other news, I think I like the option of sacrificing magic items, though I don't think this should be the core mechanic behind sacrifice. This could be an alternate rule for groups that don't want to deal with morality much at all, and want "sacrifice" to mean something that's as simple as possible.
I think where robosnake is
I think where robosnake is going here is the right direction. By making a background component to how casters are able to do magic, we have less to worry about with balance and breaking the system. One of the most common responses I've gotten from my local experienced players when I've talked about making magic harder to do was, "Bah, I just won't play a caster." Not one of them has thought it would be fun to do. However, I do think they will get behind the idea of having to do things on a less regular basis that become part of the background.
At the same time, because of the nature of bySwarm, anyone who wants to develop mechanics that make magic harder to do on a regular basis is definitely welcome to do so on the site. It just won't be the "standard" way in our published products. Although if someone does eventually hit upon a mechanic that works and players would do, then maybe we have another bubble in the flow of magic in the setting. ;)
Carrot and stick
I'd be surprised if no players played casters in the DGA, but maybe we should add a carrot- an extra temptation. Maybe if you up the sacrifice, you can apply metamagic to your spells even without the Feats?
I think I was unclear
I was trying to say that I got that reaction whenever I talked about mechanics that impacted spell-casting as spells were cast or as they were prepared. In other words, they didn't want something that could hurt them in every game.
Clerics versus Wizards
I like the inherent animosity idea between clerics and wizards. This would lead to inherent conflicts and structured encounters or game ideas. It would also eliminate the "standard" group formation and force people to be more creative.
Creating a system for clerics earning points would be easy to design. One point for attended a wounded person, one point for giving sage advice, 4 points for saving a drowning kid (a common event in mideval times), one point for using a healing spell on someone, 2 if you needed it also, etc. They could also drain magic energy from holy (god-touched) items.
Wizards could get their majic from different sources but would be limited to one type - the blood idea, draining from magical items, draining form other people or creatures, gathered from specific crystals or items, etc. One advantage of this is that characters would have to spend more time gathering magical energy, though this might bore some people as being too mundane.
The advantage of the system would be that the GM could control the amount of magic in the game by how rare such sources were for both wizards or clerics. Of course, this might make evil magic appear just easier, but those who collect energy by evil methods (such as drowning kids instead of saving them) would also be shunned by people and thus find their tasks harder. I know this may appear to make wizards inherently evil and clerics inherently good, but clerics should be good in my opinion (at least as defined by thier order).
If this kind of system interest people I could help develop lists that would be used as guides for GMs on how to give out this magical energy.
Balancing Magic
Jut a quick note. Could we set up a system where the GM gets to decide if an action is "good" magic or "bad" magic and this power goes into particular spells (based on class?) that the magic user can then use. This would mean that he only has energy for particular spells that reflect his previous actions, which might surprise some players as to how their actions are interpreted. This may be too complicated, just and idea.
Everything should be an adventure-hook
I was listening to an interview with Kenneth Hite about his setting Day After Ragnarok just last night, and while he was writing, he kept asking himself "Can I make an adventure out of this sentence?" For every sentence. Now, of course, it's possible to have literally every sentence be an adventure hook, but you get the idea.
One house rule I really liked from my days playing and running 3.0 was that we agreed that Clerics needed to 'earn' their spells the same way that Wizards supposedly researched theirs. So when you were ready for new spells, you would receive a vision, and it would be an adventure or part of an adventure during which you had to do things in line with your deity in order to gain new spells (this was a lot of fun in our "Evil campaign"). What was a sort of nonsensical mechanic (where are these spells coming from all of a sudden!?) became a story hook that made religion and divine magic matter in a setting and to the non-Clerics in the group.
I personally like what we have now, because the caster has the constant decision to make - like in Dark Sun, actually - of how to power their magic, and there is a real cost to being a "good" arcane caster.
Now, if we have spell-like abilities have the same cost, then that will balance things out a bit because every caster will have to deal with some kind of problem - that Ogre Mage will either have to have a Blood Vessel to draw on (which you can disarm/shatter), be taking time to draw from fallen allies, or will be losing hit points just like the PC wizard. I think that will be kind of self-balancing, actually.
I was going to suggest another method, but I talked myself into continuing to like our current system. :) I'm always open to good ideas, though.
Good vs Evil is Peanut butter in chocolate to me
"You've gotten your chocolate in my peanut butter!"
"No, you've gotten peanut butter on my chocolate!"
I have been on both sides of the fence when it comes to good and evil. I assure you that there is evil and likewise good, too exists. The problem facing most of the people within our little milieu that we refer to as "real life" is that they are ill equipped to recognize either of these forces. Most people are so concerned with their own needs they are like the teenage girl in our neighboring village that was killed while walking across a highway "texting" some other friends. If a person's head is down and they are not concerned by their surroundings it will be difficult for that person to become familiar with such lofty concepts as good or evil. These folks I refer to as the sleepers. They make up some 80 to 90 percent of the population and they do no more than serve in the ranks of either their good or evil masters. All that truly concerns them is those elements in life that grant a superficial joy to their untoward existence. Such concepts as altruism or self actualization are not even on their radar screen. In fact were on of the sleepers to face any such lofty concept or goal they would certainly shrink from it seeking the simplicity of their work 5 days & drink two lifestyle.
These people can be the fuel for the fire which you speak of. As I mentioned in reference to the Magical Pathway: Drawing upon the Soul forum post it is not so simple to call one group good and another evil. We can however look at the actions of a group and label certain activities as good or evil based upon our own code of conduct. The more important issue, however, is not the actions of one man rather how those actions affect those about him. For instance last weekend someone fired a number of shots into a crowd of people at a park during a sporting event. The shooter killed a man that he did not know that had apparently never said anything to him. People within the community began to react. Some wanted to pray for the injured family. Others chose to pray for both the injured and the offender's families. Still others, incensed wanted the killer's head on a plate. In fact the police were sporting for trouble when they came to take the man into custody.
The point of all of this is that vast energy was given off not by the event (shooting) rather the energy came in its wake. Those energies for and against the act were formed in the hearts of those which observed the activities. It changed them to see these events unfold and in that moment of change their psyches released waves of powerful energy. Some of these energies were picked up by "sleepers" and then again magnified for if there is one thing that sleepers do well it is magnify the works of others. Once the energies had transmitted all about town into every recess and corner the true revelation of soul was delivered. People that never would have made statements considered hateful spewed venom so hurtful and vile that it fomented the entire event into a rage of emotions no longer directed against one man and his sudden and unthoughtful actions, but at anyone that would contradict the opinion of .... the righteous.
Those which believe themselves right wield a terrible power. Yet those who are righteous overcome these with a thought and within that thought lies the doom of mankind.
We can easily use the negative and positive energies of the psyche to move mountains. Or so we have been told by leaders both religious and political. Additionally we can even go so far as to find references to such action in secular and non-secular history. The trick will be in setting this all up in such a fashion as to allow players to recover the energies that they need to cast their spells and never to allow it to digress to recovering "points" that they need to cast their spells.
If we can make people become a fraction as concerned about their in game faction and its goals as they are about which pro ball player is the greatest of his field then we will take that energy out of their heads, redirect it into their game and build a world which they refuse to abandon. For this reality is only one of many and the people seek ever and anon to entertain themselves. The responsibility of discovering the "trigger" to their joy is ours and I dare say that we must find it before we lay pen to paper.